Comments on: Grand Theft Auto Doesn’t Promote Killing, the Bible Does http://svenontech.com/2005/03/19/grand-theft-auto-doesnt-promote-killing-the-bible-does/ The technology resource you can't resist! Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:53:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Bob http://svenontech.com/2005/03/19/grand-theft-auto-doesnt-promote-killing-the-bible-does/comment-page-1/#comment-8535 Bob Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:37:37 +0000 http://svenrox.com/?p=4713#comment-8535 I don't think you give enough credit to people on this one. I know very few people who follow Falwell (can't remember the last time I heard his name other than in a negative way by people stereotyping Christians) or Robertson, and none who take everything they say seriously. I think there are groups of people who give more credence to some of the charlatans out there, but they are more likely to follow Benny Hinn than someone who teaches violence because they are trying to get a blessing for themselves, not promote a social agenda. There are also people who make (for example) the anti-abortion cause their religion. My church has been picketed by such on Sunday mornings. These folks are likely to fly off the deep end (or already have), but there is nothing Scriptural about their actions. Cooper's article focuses specifically on the Bible, not on those who misuse it. He is an editor for a popular tech site. As an editor, he ought to know the importance of the words that he chooses. Interestingly, he chose to use the word "incite," not "promote." Personally, I'd think he'd have a better argument if he had used "promote," but he didn't go there. The Bible does not incite violence, and I still thing people would be hard pressed to find any widely respected preacher who does/has tried to do that. There are plenty of preachers out there that I don't have much respect for (e.g. Trinity Broadcasting Network), but the idea that people are out there promoting or inciting violence just doesn't, from what I've seen, carry much weight. Most of what gets promoted is selfishness, health and wealth gospel stuff. As for offense, I've told Sven several times that I don't get offended nearly as easily as I offend, hopefully this reply was a bit nicer. :) I don’t think you give enough credit to people on this one. I know very few people who follow Falwell (can’t remember the last time I heard his name other than in a negative way by people stereotyping Christians) or Robertson, and none who take everything they say seriously. I think there are groups of people who give more credence to some of the charlatans out there, but they are more likely to follow Benny Hinn than someone who teaches violence because they are trying to get a blessing for themselves, not promote a social agenda. There are also people who make (for example) the anti-abortion cause their religion. My church has been picketed by such on Sunday mornings. These folks are likely to fly off the deep end (or already have), but there is nothing Scriptural about their actions.

Cooper’s article focuses specifically on the Bible, not on those who misuse it. He is an editor for a popular tech site. As an editor, he ought to know the importance of the words that he chooses. Interestingly, he chose to use the word “incite,” not “promote.” Personally, I’d think he’d have a better argument if he had used “promote,” but he didn’t go there. The Bible does not incite violence, and I still thing people would be hard pressed to find any widely respected preacher who does/has tried to do that. There are plenty of preachers out there that I don’t have much respect for (e.g. Trinity Broadcasting Network), but the idea that people are out there promoting or inciting violence just doesn’t, from what I’ve seen, carry much weight. Most of what gets promoted is selfishness, health and wealth gospel stuff.

As for offense, I’ve told Sven several times that I don’t get offended nearly as easily as I offend, hopefully this reply was a bit nicer. :)

]]> By: Peter http://svenontech.com/2005/03/19/grand-theft-auto-doesnt-promote-killing-the-bible-does/comment-page-1/#comment-8403 Peter Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:20:43 +0000 http://svenrox.com/?p=4713#comment-8403 Addendum: I dont mean to say that all evangelicals are suckers, but they do tend to be gullible. The Evangelicals who are educated generally tend to be the one's doing the suckering.(This is just a personal observation.) Based on the people I've heard talking, the vast majority of evangelicals in the country are the good-hearted, moral, I'd-give-more-to-charity-if-I-hadn't-given-it-all-to-Pat-Robertson types that provide America with its sense of moral center. Except that these people dont appear to have the sense that God gave them when it comes to detecting BS; especially if it is "God will save you if you believe me and not the other guy and give me all your money" flavor of BS. But these are just the people I've been exposed to, there might be people who don't believe everything last word Pat Robertson or the President says. And, of course, these same people believe that their politician is honest, and that the Easter Bunny is real. I hope this doesnt offend you; I did not intend this to descend into flames. Addendum:
I dont mean to say that all evangelicals are suckers, but they do tend to be gullible. The Evangelicals who are educated generally tend to be the one’s doing the suckering.(This is just a personal observation.) Based on the people I’ve heard talking, the vast majority of evangelicals in the country are the good-hearted, moral, I’d-give-more-to-charity-if-I-hadn’t-given-it-all-to-Pat-Robertson types that provide America with its sense of moral center. Except that these people dont appear to have the sense that God gave them when it comes to detecting BS; especially if it is “God will save you if you believe me and not the other guy and give me all your money” flavor of BS. But these are just the people I’ve been exposed to, there might be people who don’t believe everything last word Pat Robertson or the President says. And, of course, these same people believe that their politician is honest, and that the Easter Bunny is real.
I hope this doesnt offend you; I did not intend this to descend into flames.

]]> By: Peter http://svenontech.com/2005/03/19/grand-theft-auto-doesnt-promote-killing-the-bible-does/comment-page-1/#comment-8402 Peter Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:07:08 +0000 http://svenrox.com/?p=4713#comment-8402 Hi Bob! You've got some good points in your comment, and while I think that you and I are in the same league as regards our friends, I think perhaps that the thread your and Sven comments come from misses the point. I believe Mr. Cooper was trying to say that the Bible promotes just as much violence as violent video games do. I think that perhaps he misspoke and intended "the Bible" to mean the people that put forth the Bible, that being the Old Testament, neo-con, let's kill everyone 'cause God told us to, types. Of course that's opposed to the New Testament where Jesus pointedly decries violence and Man judging other Men for supposed crimes and immoralities. I will agree with you that the Bible itself does not promote violence for the reasons you cited, but I believe that the people who promote their agendas, whatever they may be, using the Bible as the reason that all sane people should agree with them and their agenda are the ones who promote just as much violence as video games do, but instead of the violence being an electronic simulation that you could get up and walk away from, violence promoted by "bible-thumpers"(if you'll excuse the expression) happens in reality and is exceedingly hard to walk away from, especially if you happen to believe that what they are promoting is a message from God, who, of course, cannot be wrong. If you wish to email me directly, i am at vurk@earthlink.net. Hi Bob!
You’ve got some good points in your comment, and while I think that you and I are in the same league as regards our friends, I think perhaps that the thread your and Sven comments come from misses the point.
I believe Mr. Cooper was trying to say that the Bible promotes just as much violence as violent video games do.
I think that perhaps he misspoke and intended “the Bible” to mean the people that put forth the Bible, that being the Old Testament, neo-con, let’s kill everyone ’cause God told us to, types. Of course that’s opposed to the New Testament where Jesus pointedly decries violence and Man judging other Men for supposed crimes and immoralities. I will agree with you that the Bible itself does not promote violence for the reasons you cited, but I believe that the people who promote their agendas, whatever they may be, using the Bible as the reason that all sane people should agree with them and their agenda are the ones who promote just as much violence as video games do, but instead of the violence being an electronic simulation that you could get up and walk away from, violence promoted by “bible-thumpers”(if you’ll excuse the expression) happens in reality and is exceedingly hard to walk away from, especially if you happen to believe that what they are promoting is a message from God, who, of course, cannot be wrong.
If you wish to email me directly, i am at vurk@earthlink.net.

]]> By: Bob http://svenontech.com/2005/03/19/grand-theft-auto-doesnt-promote-killing-the-bible-does/comment-page-1/#comment-8396 Bob Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:25:58 +0000 http://svenrox.com/?p=4713#comment-8396 There's an awful lot of stereotyping in those comments there, Peter. Your specific examples would be...? I don't follow Falwell or Robertson, so there may actually be something legit in what you say, but color me skeptical. Can't say that I've heard Sven do what you claim either. Are there some little known freaks that do this? Yes, but they're little known for a reason, people know they're fakes. You seem to stereotype evangelicals as a bunch of gullible suckers. It seems to me that if you believe that then you've listened to someone who thinks you're a gullible sucker. Sorry if I'm being rude, but you give nothing to back up your statements other than impressions. I, for one, have lived in inner cities almost my entire adult life. I don't support the death penalty or abortion, I do support gun control. My liberal friends think I'm conservative and my conservative friends think I'm liberal. I would hope I'm realistic, but like most people, I figure I'm wrong about a lot of things. I have a lot of respect for people who take the Bible seriously, even if I disagree with them on some things. That said, it's generally pretty easy to tell when someone is way off base when it comes to the Bible. That said, there is violence in the Bible. Ignoring it or saying that certain parts of the Bible aren't relevant to you would cause most people to think you're a hypocrit. It's there, and if you take the Bible seriously you have to deal with it. The Bible does place violence within a context of right and wrong. There is always an explanation of why God has allowed war, killing, etc. when it came from God. In other contexts, it is clear that it is sin and stated as such. Video games offer no such context. There’s an awful lot of stereotyping in those comments there, Peter. Your specific examples would be…? I don’t follow Falwell or Robertson, so there may actually be something legit in what you say, but color me skeptical. Can’t say that I’ve heard Sven do what you claim either. Are there some little known freaks that do this? Yes, but they’re little known for a reason, people know they’re fakes. You seem to stereotype evangelicals as a bunch of gullible suckers. It seems to me that if you believe that then you’ve listened to someone who thinks you’re a gullible sucker. Sorry if I’m being rude, but you give nothing to back up your statements other than impressions.

I, for one, have lived in inner cities almost my entire adult life. I don’t support the death penalty or abortion, I do support gun control. My liberal friends think I’m conservative and my conservative friends think I’m liberal. I would hope I’m realistic, but like most people, I figure I’m wrong about a lot of things. I have a lot of respect for people who take the Bible seriously, even if I disagree with them on some things. That said, it’s generally pretty easy to tell when someone is way off base when it comes to the Bible. That said, there is violence in the Bible. Ignoring it or saying that certain parts of the Bible aren’t relevant to you would cause most people to think you’re a hypocrit. It’s there, and if you take the Bible seriously you have to deal with it. The Bible does place violence within a context of right and wrong. There is always an explanation of why God has allowed war, killing, etc. when it came from God. In other contexts, it is clear that it is sin and stated as such. Video games offer no such context.

]]> By: Peter http://svenontech.com/2005/03/19/grand-theft-auto-doesnt-promote-killing-the-bible-does/comment-page-1/#comment-8389 Peter Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:58:05 +0000 http://svenrox.com/?p=4713#comment-8389 <strong><i>Correction</i></strong>The line which reads:<i>It is people who claim to deliver the word of God, like Falwell, Robertson, and perhaps yourself, you do the most damage to society...</i> should read: It is people who claim to deliver the word of God, like Falwell, Robertson, and perhaps yourself, <strong>who</strong> do the most damage to society... CorrectionThe line which reads:It is people who claim to deliver the word of God, like Falwell, Robertson, and perhaps yourself, you do the most damage to society… should read: It is people who claim to deliver the word of God, like Falwell, Robertson, and perhaps yourself, who do the most damage to society…

]]> By: Peter http://svenontech.com/2005/03/19/grand-theft-auto-doesnt-promote-killing-the-bible-does/comment-page-1/#comment-8388 Peter Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:52:57 +0000 http://svenrox.com/?p=4713#comment-8388 <!-- spamk : Comment text: 'Unfortunately, Sven, you are just as wrong(and just as correct) as Mr. Cooper is. While Mr. Cooper says that only a pre-existing condition can allow a video game to influence one's behavior, the same cannot be of the Bible. I am a practicing Christian(of the New Testament type, not the Old Testament, neo-con type) and I can say that of all the kinds of violence Jesus abhors, he rejects most vehemently that violence done in His name. Such as Crusades, witch hunts, abortion-clinic bombings and the murder of innocent doctors. Violent video games do cause aberrent behavior in a small percentage of their audience who might not otherwise be prone to violence, but the Bible is used to *incite* violence in otherwise uneducated, pious people. It is people who claim to deliver the word of God, like Falwell, Robertson, and perhaps yourself, you do the most damage to society by claiming that whatever they believe is the absolute Word of God, and as such, is inviolate and beyond the reach of mere mortal society and its rules and standards of conduct. By claiming such things, and using millions of dollars of solicited monies to further spread such claims, this allows these people to claim further that anyone who dis-agrees with them about their "messages from God" is "in league with the Devil" or "Satan incarnate." Given that Man is inherently weak and corruptible, these so-called "Men of God" used their millions of dollars to corrupt and influence the political process to their own ends. So it is the Bible which is responsible for inciting violence against political or social opponents in the same way that violent video games are responsible for training a person who might be prone to violence to go out and produce mayhem. I might remind you that just because the Bible is a Holy Book does not keep con-men and charlatans from praying on the uneducated and weak-minded among us, just as the voluntary rating system for video games does not keep parents or children away from unsuitable or inappropriate games. Also, I might add, the rash of minor-involved ("school") shootings that have occurred over the last 5-6 years have always been among young white men from solid middle-class families with good upbringings and church attendence. It is claimed that the Columbine shooters were influenced by the video game "Doom," but having played that game, and its brethren, there is no way that they could have been trained to do what they did by any video game released at the time. One of the other shooters in that rash of violence across the nation was a child shooting his Sunday School class. There, no-one with any credibility, religious or otherwise, claimed it was a product of video-game violence. Aside from self-confessed video-game violence perpetrators, we have no hard evidence of video games inciting violence, merely helping a person already pre-disposed to it along; while we have a ton of hard evidence of these so-called "Men of God" inciting people to violence. All a person must do is turn on their TV network and at some point during the broadcast, they will indicate a wish for someone to do "something" about a certain problem or, as Henry the Eigth put it: "Will no-one rid me of this terrible priest?", inserting "abortion clinic," "abortion doctor," "politician X" or whoever they are upset with at the time for "priest." Naturally they couch it in the soft, vague terms of the person who does not want to be called into court for it, but it is there nonetheless; and it cannot be too vague for their intended audience is the gullible, weak-minded and uneducated among our society. For it is always these people that con-men have ever preyed (or prayed) upon. Do video games go too far? Yes, they do; often for no other reason than shock value. Does the Bible promote violence? Not as such, since the Bible is merely words upon paper. But it is the purveyors of the Bible who claim to be the sole messengers of God, who, like the purveyors of video games, promote the violence that is so offensive to society.' matched ((holdem|texas|poker|casino|online|gambl|blackjack|game|free).*){2,} --> Unfortunately, Sven, you are just as wrong(and just as correct) as Mr. Cooper is. While Mr. Cooper says that only a pre-existing condition can allow a video game to influence one's behavior, the same cannot be of the Bible. I am a practicing Christian(of the New Testament type, not the Old Testament, neo-con type) and I can say that of all the kinds of violence Jesus abhors, he rejects most vehemently that violence done in His name. Such as Crusades, witch hunts, abortion-clinic bombings and the murder of innocent doctors. Violent video games do cause aberrent behavior in a small percentage of their audience who might not otherwise be prone to violence, but the Bible is used to *incite* violence in otherwise uneducated, pious people. It is people who claim to deliver the word of God, like Falwell, Robertson, and perhaps yourself, you do the most damage to society by claiming that whatever they believe is the absolute Word of God, and as such, is inviolate and beyond the reach of mere mortal society and its rules and standards of conduct. By claiming such things, and using millions of dollars of solicited monies to further spread such claims, this allows these people to claim further that anyone who dis-agrees with them about their "messages from God" is "in league with the Devil" or "Satan incarnate." Given that Man is inherently weak and corruptible, these so-called "Men of God" used their millions of dollars to corrupt and influence the political process to their own ends. So it is the Bible which is responsible for inciting violence against political or social opponents in the same way that violent video games are responsible for training a person who might be prone to violence to go out and produce mayhem. I might remind you that just because the Bible is a Holy Book does not keep con-men and charlatans from praying on the uneducated and weak-minded among us, just as the voluntary rating system for video games does not keep parents or children away from unsuitable or inappropriate games. Also, I might add, the rash of minor-involved ("school") shootings that have occurred over the last 5-6 years have always been among young white men from solid middle-class families with good upbringings and church attendence. It is claimed that the Columbine shooters were influenced by the video game "Doom," but having played that game, and its brethren, there is no way that they could have been trained to do what they did by any video game released at the time. One of the other shooters in that rash of violence across the nation was a child shooting his Sunday School class. There, no-one with any credibility, religious or otherwise, claimed it was a product of video-game violence. Aside from self-confessed video-game violence perpetrators, we have no hard evidence of video games inciting violence, merely helping a person already pre-disposed to it along; while we have a ton of hard evidence of these so-called "Men of God" inciting people to violence. All a person must do is turn on their TV network and at some point during the broadcast, they will indicate a wish for someone to do "something" about a certain problem or, as Henry the Eigth put it: "Will no-one rid me of this terrible priest?", inserting "abortion clinic," "abortion doctor," "politician X" or whoever they are upset with at the time for "priest." Naturally they couch it in the soft, vague terms of the person who does not want to be called into court for it, but it is there nonetheless; and it cannot be too vague for their intended audience is the gullible, weak-minded and uneducated among our society. For it is always these people that con-men have ever preyed (or prayed) upon. Do video games go too far? Yes, they do; often for no other reason than shock value. Does the Bible promote violence? Not as such, since the Bible is merely words upon paper. But it is the purveyors of the Bible who claim to be the sole messengers of God, who, like the purveyors of video games, promote the violence that is so offensive to society.
Unfortunately, Sven, you are just as wrong(and just as correct) as Mr. Cooper is.
While Mr. Cooper says that only a pre-existing condition can allow a video game to influence one’s behavior, the same cannot be of the Bible. I am a practicing Christian(of the New Testament type, not the Old Testament, neo-con type) and I can say that of all the kinds of violence Jesus abhors, he rejects most vehemently that violence done in His name. Such as Crusades, witch hunts, abortion-clinic bombings and the murder of innocent doctors.
Violent video games do cause aberrent behavior in a small percentage of their audience who might not otherwise be prone to violence, but the Bible is used to *incite* violence in otherwise uneducated, pious people. It is people who claim to deliver the word of God, like Falwell, Robertson, and perhaps yourself, you do the most damage to society by claiming that whatever they believe is the absolute Word of God, and as such, is inviolate and beyond the reach of mere mortal society and its rules and standards of conduct. By claiming such things, and using millions of dollars of solicited monies to further spread such claims, this allows these people to claim further that anyone who dis-agrees with them about their “messages from God” is “in league with the Devil” or “Satan incarnate.” Given that Man is inherently weak and corruptible, these so-called “Men of God” used their millions of dollars to corrupt and influence the political process to their own ends.
So it is the Bible which is responsible for inciting violence against political or social opponents in the same way that violent video games are responsible for training a person who might be prone to violence to go out and produce mayhem.
I might remind you that just because the Bible is a Holy Book does not keep con-men and charlatans from praying on the uneducated and weak-minded among us, just as the voluntary rating system for video games does not keep parents or children away from unsuitable or inappropriate games.
Also, I might add, the rash of minor-involved (“school”) shootings that have occurred over the last 5-6 years have always been among young white men from solid middle-class families with good upbringings and church attendence. It is claimed that the Columbine shooters were influenced by the video game “Doom,” but having played that game, and its brethren, there is no way that they could have been trained to do what they did by any video game released at the time.
One of the other shooters in that rash of violence across the nation was a child shooting his Sunday School class. There, no-one with any credibility, religious or otherwise, claimed it was a product of video-game violence.
Aside from self-confessed video-game violence perpetrators, we have no hard evidence of video games inciting violence, merely helping a person already pre-disposed to it along; while we have a ton of hard evidence of these so-called “Men of God” inciting people to violence. All a person must do is turn on their TV network and at some point during the broadcast, they will indicate a wish for someone to do “something” about a certain problem or, as Henry the Eigth put it: “Will no-one rid me of this terrible priest?”, inserting “abortion clinic,” “abortion doctor,” “politician X” or whoever they are upset with at the time for “priest.” Naturally they couch it in the soft, vague terms of the person who does not want to be called into court for it, but it is there nonetheless; and it cannot be too vague for their intended audience is the gullible, weak-minded and uneducated among our society. For it is always these people that con-men have ever preyed (or prayed) upon.
Do video games go too far? Yes, they do; often for no other reason than shock value. Does the Bible promote violence? Not as such, since the Bible is merely words upon paper. But it is the purveyors of the Bible who claim to be the sole messengers of God, who, like the purveyors of video games, promote the violence that is so offensive to society.

]]> By: Bob http://svenontech.com/2005/03/19/grand-theft-auto-doesnt-promote-killing-the-bible-does/comment-page-1/#comment-8337 Bob Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:57:37 +0000 http://svenrox.com/?p=4713#comment-8337 Agreed. A number of the people who commented at the article's site noted that the violence in Scripture is done in the context of right and wrong. We know why nations were punished because the reasons were given. Video games don't do that. They simply show violence completely void of morals or context. There is a significant difference between the two. Agreed. A number of the people who commented at the article’s site noted that the violence in Scripture is done in the context of right and wrong. We know why nations were punished because the reasons were given. Video games don’t do that. They simply show violence completely void of morals or context. There is a significant difference between the two.

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