This entry was posted on Thursday, April 26th, 2007 at 21:49 and is filed under Analysis & Commentary. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.
Site Search:
Thursday, April 26, 2007
As much as I love OSX, there is one thing that bugs me about it and that’s the Finder. Finder is like so ancient and is one of the few things in this sleek new(ish) OS left over from the Classic days. Heck, Finder goes all the way back to the premiere 1984 Macintosh. It worked fine then, but man, it’s a dog and does not work fine now.
I remember after using a Macintosh SE30 for most the early 90s how freed I felt when I went to OS/2 2.1 on the PC. What freed me the most? No more Finder. I was able to use associated menu items for each application right there in the application window. Not having to move my mouse all the way to top of the screen and then back over to the application really does free things up. This freedom continued with my work with SunOS and Window95. When I came back to the Mac four years ago, OSX with all it’s wonderful NeXTSTEP features just couldn’t bump the Finder to make the transformation complete. That was my only let down on that fine evening when I booted up my TiBook.
Apple is going to have to consider doing something with Finder. Based on the screen shots floating around of Leopard, it doesn’t look like it’ll be fixed this year. As screens get larger, the process of moving your mouse to the Finder will only become more tedious. Most won’t have a 30 inch screen but most will fit into the 20s and moving your mouse to File and back all the way down to open dialog in the middle of the screen is just one example of excessive cursor travel. Go to the Apple Store and play with the 30 inch and see how much worse it is there. As screens become larger and resolution independence becomes a standard (which Leopard will support), Finder will just become more and more archaic.
I think my major whine about Finder is the inability to support one of UNIX’s coolest X-Windows features: X-Mouse. X-Mouse allows you to move the mouse over a window to give it focus. Thus, you can type or perform keyboard shortcuts on the window without having to click on it and bring it to the foreground. Great for copy and paste operations. I use this on Windows all day long. Funny how even Microsoft got that (way back in PowerToys for Windows95!) I can’t tell you how annoying it is for me to have to click a window in OSX to perform a menial task like paste only to have to click my other window to bring it back in the foreground. Ugh, NeXTSTEP supported X-Windows, so OSX should too!
My hopes are high that Apple can ditch Finder and learn from third-party applications like Path Finder. In seeing how much it has improved elsewhere on the operating system since Puma (we all know Cheetah was just a beta in itself anyway,) I have hope that Apple will ditch Finder and find a better way of filling the Finder short comings real soon. Maybe the iPhone team will rub off something to the Leopard guys its using, huh?
Whatever is your business you need good web site design to attract visitors to your web. If you want to take services of professionals then you can hire one after domain registration. However before registering any of your website you should see domain registration rules. The domain register review can help you to get all information and you can access any web through broadband.
April 27th, 2007 at 6:32
I’m surprised that you’ve been using a Mac all these years and you don’t use keyboard shortcuts. I’ve been using Macs since the System 7.5 days and one of the best things about it for me have been keyboard shortcuts. I only use the mouse if that’s the only way to manipulate or activate something on the screen.
I don’t mean any harm but, using the mouse (after you’ve mastered navigation on the Mac) is just lazy.
April 27th, 2007 at 6:47
Hey Mario, Heavens no, I do use keyboard shortcuts (hence the mention of it in the X-Mouse example.) In fact, I find my self clicking on the ATL key heavily on PCs thinking it’s the Apple key.
Unfortunately, not all programs support heavy use of keyboard shortcuts, so you are still forced to use the file bar.
Thanks for the comment and no foul!
April 27th, 2007 at 7:05
I do agree that the Finder needs some drastic improvements, but the unified menu bar is not one of them.
The unified menu bar is one of the main reasons I’ve stayed with the Macintosh for so long. It’s always where you expect it to be. A quick flick of the mouse, and the cursor is at the top of the screen — no need to even look until the cursor is already there. With menus in each window, placing the cursor on the correct menu bar requires more attention and coordination. Once you’re used to that quick flick of the mouse, having to stop and look where you’re putting the cursor is a real pain.
So, here’s hoping that Apple never removes the unified menu bar. If you want to optionally put menu bars in each window, fine — just don’t mess with the UMB. Although, I gotta say, having them in each window is a waste of screen real estate, too (many of us don’t have the fat wallets to afford a 30-inch screen — mine’s a 17-inch, and I don’t want a menu in every window).
BTW, there are other big reasons why I’ve stayed with the Mac, but the UMB is one of the main reasons. I also use Linux/Unix on a daily basis, and the UMB is one of the main things I miss (constantly) when I’m using X-windows.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:11
You seem to be confusing the Finder with the windowing system.
The Finder’s job is about managing the files on your system. Mouse focus and the unified menu bar is in the windowing system. Completely separate things.
The Finder does need fixing, but mostly to bring it up to date and make it perform better with true multi-threading, multi-tasking and better able to handle dropped servers.
As for the interface stuff, like the mouse over thing, not everybody likes it. I for one, would hate it if Apple were to implement it and doesn’t make it an option.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:15
Complete agreement with RayGun. Don’t mess with the menu bar. That singular piece of consistency is responsbile for not only ease-of-use of the Mac, but is of enormous use to those of us who teach others. Knowing that immediately to the right of the “blue apple” is the Application menu, the File menu, the Edit menu, etc., is part of a dependable cognitive interface.
Sure, make window-specific menus an option, but certainly not by default.
M
April 27th, 2007 at 8:25
I’m so used to Apple-Tabbing between open apps, that I never need to go click on something in the finder that’s already open. I apple-space for Spotlight, Apple-Tab-Q to quit programs without even going into their windows, Option-Apple-W to close all windows, F-11 to push everything out of the way in a hurry if I have to get to an unopened item quickly, etc. etc.
One of the most aggravating things about Windows is that if things are running slowly (such as the idiocy of running applications over a network), and you THINK you double-clicked on an app, but you’re not sure, so you double-click it again after a rasonable wait, then all of a sudden TWO copies of the app pop up!
I’ll stick with the simplicity of the Apple finder, thank you.
-=-Ron-=-
April 27th, 2007 at 8:34
Yes, like the others have said, you are confusing the “Finder” with the global menu bar model. Command-O and Command-S should work in any decent Macintosh application. I agree that the Finder itself needs a lot of work but those areas you mention are not part of it. I don’t particularly like the crowded, ugly look of localized menus on every single window.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:33
I won’t comment on the UMB/Finder as everyone else seems to have that covered. I would agree that the Finder needs some work. One feature that would be nice is the address bar style I found in Vista (i know … blasphemer!!!). Maybe it’s because I’m a web designer, but a Safari-esque window with an address bar would be great. At a glance you can see what server/drive/directory you’re in. In OSX, you’ve got to customixe the Finder Window to add the “Path” drop down. While one simple click to see where you’re at isn’t much to ask, it would be nice to know at a glance.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:50
NEXTSTEP never supported X-Windows natively. The mouse-focus thing is convenient at first but quickly becomes annoying.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:06
I wholeheartedly support the use of window-centric menus. There are an increasing number of Mac users with very large monitors or dual monitors, and it’s absurd to contend that it’s much easier to move the mouse pointer “miles” to the fixed menu bar than simply to invoke a menu in the window within which one is ALREADY working.
I don’t object to a fixed, global menu as an OPTION, but Apple should make window-centric menu bars available to those who prefer it.
The idea that it’s confusing to use is manifestly refuted by the millions of Windows users who somehow manage to get by.
Also, imagine having multiple windows (and apps) open on the screen at once. With a global menu bar you have to pay attention to which window is in focus in order to know to what application the menu bar applies. You have to stop to think as you go to the menu bar which application you are working in.
Contrast this with window-centric menus. There is no such thought given to such things. Instantly the user knows that the menu in a window applies to the contents of that window — full stop.
Just how is that difficult?
April 27th, 2007 at 10:45
Thanks for the clarification on the UMB and Finder everyone. I do know (as already alluded to here,) that I see a lot of beach balls when working in Finder (network drives mostly) and that is annoying.
Mark Dadgar, you’re right on X-Windows support in NeXTSTEP. I meant X-Mouse (or what ever it was called in NS). X-Mouse *auto-rise* can be very annoying, but I always turn that off. As to the other aspects of it, I guess it’s what you’re “raised” on and having many years of UNIX history, I absolutely love X-Mouse and sometimes tear my hair out because it’s not on the Mac. I agree with all that if it ever came to the Mac, it should be an option (as I figured it would be.)
I hear the arguments against the file bar within each Window, but it really doesn’t steal that much screen real estate. Again, I guess it’s what you’ve grown up with. As to finding that blue Apple in the top left screen to get to your settings easily, dude, Microsoft has the same thing. It’s called the Start button.
April 27th, 2007 at 19:02
“Also, imagine having multiple windows (and apps) open on the screen at once. With a global menu bar you have to pay attention to which window is in focus in order to know to what application the menu bar applies. You have to stop to think as you go to the menu bar which application you are working in”
Background windows and applications look different than active applications and windows in order to make it easy to tell which is the active window.
Jeff and I had an extended discussion of this issue in the Macworld forums a while back
but it basically comes down to Fitt’s Law. Decades of interface research shows that a single menu bar located along the very edge of the screen is both easier to “hit” and better ergonomically. Many people who didn’t learn to use a computer on a Mac don’t realize this advantage because they still try to mouse like they did on Windows, X-Windows, or other GUIs, moving carefully along both X and Y axes to get to the desired menu item — requiring precision in two dimensions. The way you’re supposed to do it on a Mac is to quickly flick your mouse to the top of the screen, in the general direction of the desired menu, and then, if you’re not already there (no precision necessary), move side to side along the X axis (precision in a single dimension).
I do agree that today’s extremely large displays make this advantage less obvious, but I think the solution is better mouse accelleration curves — so you can still quickly flick the cursor to the menu bar — rather than abandoning a proven interface.
P.S. Discovered this post via the MyAppleMenu.com RSS feed…
April 27th, 2007 at 19:14
I don’t understand your comment about having to move the cursor to the File menu in the Finder. Why not just use the contextual menu (Control click, or right click with the Mighty Mouse). This gives you the File menu immediately at the position of your cursor. My objections to the Finder are bugs such as losing the positions of disk partitions on the Desktop between restarts, the lack of certain common deselect events, and the missing total size of items in the trash when attempting to empty it (as in OS 9, for example). I do not agree with activating a window using a mouse roll over. The clicking actually prevents certain errors such as pasting into the wrong file. But I would greatly support more customizaion capabilities.
April 27th, 2007 at 20:13
Sven,
John Brave is right - you’re really confused here. Your article should really be titled something like “I don’t like the windowing system on Macs.”
There is a movement among Mac users to request that Apple fix the Finder, but it has nothing to do with the menu bar convention, which ALL applications follow, but rather the slow performance, locking up when accessing slow network disks, and much, much more.
The focus-follows-mouse technique you mention can be useful, but confusing for many users. Perhaps as an option it would be a good idea, so advanced users could turn it on. Again, though, that is part of the windowing system that would apply to all applications, not just the Finder.
Your article isn’t about the Finder at all. The confusion you display makes your central argument fairly unpersuasive. Go look up Fitt’s Law of interface design. Having the menu bar at the edge of the screen aids dramatically in targeting menu items - you don’t have to stop on the right spot to hit it.
This article is really just about your personal preferences regarding windowing systems - it has nothing to do with Apple finding a Finder replacement - neither the need to do so, nor even anything about the Finder at all.
April 27th, 2007 at 23:47
One thing that makes Macs reliable to use, is the “positive action” effect. The Terminal app in 10.3 actually has focus follows mouse if you have more than one Terminal session open. As long as you remember the relationship between the mouse position and the action it can *sometimes* be useful, but if you forget the “passive action” causes the typing to go into the wrong session. This can create disasters…
(For advanced users, its perhaps not a bad option, for some applications; perhaps an able-to-receive-click/type-throughs toggle for each application? I have sneaky feeling this might already be there, just hidden–?)
Passive focus, when implemented for forms, has the annoying “feature” that the cursor must lie on the content, interfering with reading the content you are typing in. You can’t move the cursor out of the way, as doing that would lose the focus… To a lesser extent this also applies to text boxes, etc., like the one I’m writing into!
Rather then “move miles”, I would prefer a short-cut that popped up a copy of the current menu-bar up at the current mouse position until an option is selected or focus is set elsewhere. It’d be a far more practical solution IMO. (re: Fitt’s Law in this case; its just as quick to hit a [simple!] key combination–?)
April 28th, 2007 at 0:05
Once upon a time a company, NOW Software, provide an excellent alternative to the fixed menu. Called Now Menus, the startup extension allowed the use the get the full application bar to appear at the current cursor/pointer location when the mouse button was depressed while holding down a prefix key (before the contrext menu was enabled, I preferred the CTRL-MouseButton combo)
I really have had no compaint about the finder, and really did not appreciate Swen coming off as if he were speaking on behalf of MacUsers in general … that the finder is broken and needs replacing???!!!
April 28th, 2007 at 1:24
I agree with many users’ comments that Apple’s current menubar implementation is superior, and as someone pointed out, scientifically proven to be more productive due to Fitt’s law. The bigger issue of moving away from the UMB is that it requires a whole new paradigm - you’re asking Apple to go from a document-centric model of computing to an application-centric one. I, for one, feel far more productive and far less restricted in a document-centric environment - probably because it more closely mimics how we work in the real world. For example, in Winows, why do I need to resize the application window before I can resize the document window? And when I minimize a window, it goes to the bottom of the application window, but it’s also availabe on the taskbar?? I spend 10-12 hours a day in XP with a dual monitor setup, and managing windows/apps frustrates me to no end. There are too many steps, too much clutter and far less freedom in how windows can be arranged in an application-specific model. Therefore, the solution isn’t to emulate Windows - IMO, Apple shouldn’t even offer it. Instead, Apple should make menus “tearable” so that you can place them anywhere on the screen and allow for those menus to “attach” to a window so that moving the window would also move the menu.
April 28th, 2007 at 5:55
“…it’s absurd to contend that it’s much easier to move the mouse pointer “miles” to the fixed menu bar than simply to invoke a menu in the window within which one is ALREADY working.”
It is actually easier to use the UMB, since it’s not actually “miles”, but a quick flick of the mouse. Invoking a menu item within a window requires much more attention and precision than invoking a menu item at the edge of the screen (which the cursor cannot overshoot).
“The idea that it’s confusing to use is manifestly refuted by the millions of Windows users who somehow manage to get by.”
You make a good point: millions of Windows users somehow manage to get by. (I would hate to “get by”, I would rather thrive.) But I don’t think “confusing” is the operative word; substitute “a hassle”. It is a hassle to stop what you are doing, find the menu bar among all the clutter on the screen, and precisely move the cursor to the correct menu before clicking the mouse button. With the UMB, you don’t have to stop, there’s no need to find the menu bar: a flick of the mouse (quickly move the mouse “up”) and a click — that’s all it takes.
I agree with another poster that the mouse acceleration algorithm needs some work, to compensate for the increasing size of monitors, but that’s it. In the meantime, if you don’t want to move your mouse to the top of the screen, try the contextual menus: control-click, or right-click.
“Also, imagine having multiple windows (and apps) open on the screen at once. With a global menu bar you have to pay attention to which window is in focus in order to know to what application the menu bar applies. You have to stop to think as you go to the menu bar which application you are working in.”
I’ve got multiple windows and apps open right now, and I don’t have to stop and think about which window is in focus, nor do I have to remember which app I’m in. If I have forgotten (by some bizarre fluke), the UMB takes care of most of that: there’s only one menu bar, and it applies to the window and app that I’m working in — period. In fact, I can operate the unified menu bar in the periphery of my vision — I don’t even have to look at it until the menu has already dropped down. That’s how easy a UMB is to operate.
April 28th, 2007 at 21:49
“I would prefer a short-cut that popped up a copy of the current menu-bar up at the current mouse position”
Grant, check out DejaMenu:
http://homepage.mac.com/khsu/DejaMenu/DejaMenu.html
It gives you a pop-up menu of the current app’s menu bar by pressing a keyboard shortcut.
April 29th, 2007 at 18:59
19 (DFrakes), thanks.
Just to be clear, I don’t need this myself! (Although maybe I’ll have a look anyway…) What I meant was that *if* Apple needed to answer to “moving the mouse miles”, I’d prefer they provide a short-cut like this to a Windowese “menu on every window” approach.